Talk:Ryan Security
Warped away from BS1/Bs2 : It's simple. IG reused Splicer face texture. : Pawn of Atlas (talk) 03:59, March 29, 2014 (UTC) : Why Not Ducky? Dont you think its odd that they didnt use the Ducky splicer as a pre-spliced securit guard? Shacob (talk) 20:42, March 28, 2014 (UTC) :Maybe because the developers didn't want them to actually look like peace-keepers and more like mercenaries sent to assassinate a bunch of people judged too dangerous for the city? Pauolo (talk) 23:10, May 10, 2014 (UTC) : Ryans forces containing Splicers ? :If you remember the first game, it was said in various audio diaries scattered at Hephaestus that Ryan had spliced guards to protect him. Moreover, the gates of Apollo Square after it became condemned were guarded by Splicers too on Ryan's orders, according to Diane McClintock. Pauolo (talk) 22:55, May 10, 2014 (UTC) ::He probably started Splicing his men after the attack on Fontaine during September 1958. From McDonagh's recording, Fontaine's Splicers were enough frightening to be compared to "demons out of the Bible." Ryan was not stupid, he probably saw what was coming after Fontaine's death and started having Splicers among his own men. Also his men seemed relativity sane in BaS 2 which could mean they didn't start using genetic modifications since long. ::Btw, please sign your posts by writting ~ four times at the end of using the button above the writing window. You probably don't want to make an account but at least sign your posts in talk pages so we can know who to answer to. Pauolo (talk) 11:19, May 11, 2014 (UTC) Ryan Security or Rapture Security :I believe that Rapture had no official police forces. Ryan merely provided the services of his own private security business (apparently run by Sullivan) like he provided maintenance, oxygen and energy supplying to the rest of the city. There were probably justice courts held by representatives of the city like the council, but Ryan definitely controlled the authority through his mercenaries approved by the city council. And judging from the various descriptions of "Ryan's men" through each game they are mentioned in (even Minerva's Den), they were faithful to Ryan and intimidating. :Also when McDonagh says "government-types," I believe he refers the council as some kind of government since its members seemed to represent the various communities of Rapture (science, medical, industry, energy, art, security, ...), which is the point of a government. It's a shame the background of this council was never fully detailed. Pauolo (talk) 23:07, May 10, 2014 (UTC) :- :Perhaps Bots were the police force in Rapture, if the player breaks the shop windows in Fort Frolic to steal the shop goods, it is Bots acting as a police force that come to investigate the crime. Maybe Ryan thought robot police officers could not be corrupted, but criminals soon learned how to hack the Bots anyway. ::Bots and turrets were both services provided by Ryan Private Security (there's an announcement for those in Burial at Sea). They kinda replaced effectively the police force when the later was either spliced to madness or dead, but yes they only reacted to automatisms (shoot only, don't ask questions). ::As for Minerva's Den, I think those advanced bot models were only used by Rapture Central Computing to protect Minerva's Den, since the company was running all automatism in Rapture, including vital ones. But in the end, Splicers in that place simply started using them for their own personal uses, as you can see many walking around with reprogrammed bots. Also Wahl controlled the whole complex and simply reprogrammed the whole security systems of Minerva's Den to his own convenience. Pauolo (talk) 11:31, May 11, 2014 (UTC) ::::Are the constables (a.k.a Ducky) part of Ryan's Private Security detail or were they a separate entity? Thought I should ask first before adding more into the article. Tricksteroffools (talk) 23:28, November 1, 2014 (UTC) ::::I get the impression that Ryan Security and Rapture Security are two seperate entities. Rapture Security is the general police force run by Sullivan who supposidly follows the Councile's orders. Their job was to deal with murder, theft and smuggeling. The normal jobs of cops. Ryan Security is owned by Ryan and takes orders from Ryan. These guys as we see in Burial at Sea, did not act like the police. They acted like hired thugs and enforcers. Ryan calls them "sharks" at one point. sm --Solarmech (talk) 12:45, November 2, 2014 (UTC) :::::I sorta see your point, but have to disagree on other details. Sullivan is an employee of Ryan Industries, he reports directly to Andrew Ryan. I suspect that Sullivan oversaw the police forces contracted by the city council to uphold the law in Rapture. :::::The thugs running about in BASE2 are probably a branch of Rapture Security. Think the SWAT team compared with the regular uniformed beat cop. I believe Ryan Security and Rapture Security are synonymous, but the forces encountered in the Dept. Store were just a small, specialized, militaristic division compared with the rest of the police force. :::::Unownshipper (talk) 23:02, November 2, 2014 (UTC) ::::::The rest of the police force would be the Ducky. I remember seeing one of them in BioShock 2 with a big R logo on the back, so I guess this Splicer model is meant to represent the regular Ryan Security/Rapture Security agent. Pauolo (talk) 00:05, November 3, 2014 (UTC) ::::::::Should we detail the possible branches of Rapture/ Ryan security? From the constables to security agents to "SWAT" teams/ Spliced specialists? Tricksteroffools (talk) 02:10, March 2, 2015 (UTC) :::::::::Without an actual chart showing the breakdown of the force or any real names of the different branches, it would just be a lot of speculation and guessing. How are we to know that a Ducky is more or less powerful/highly ranked than a Ryan Security agent? He looks weaker and wasn't at the big fight in the store, but on the other hand he had the strength/abilities to outlast the other members of Ryan Sec until Jack arrives. See what I mean? :::::::::Unownshipper (talk) 00:29, March 3, 2015 (UTC) "a city without law or god." Where is this quote from ? Is there a reference to it actually in the game ? (the search on this wiki system has much to be desired when it cant multiple word match phrases properly) an outside yahoo search only turned up (similar result of) this wiki page as only having that quoted text. It make no sense to have 'no law' (anarchy?) -- what does the 'ryan security' (or constables) enforce or how do you run commerce if there are no laws to enforce compliance of contracts and such? 10:54, March 28, 2015 (UTC) : :It is a game reference from BioShock 2. :Unownshipper (talk) 12:41, March 28, 2015 (UTC) :"one man chose" "a city free of law and god" --- more of Lamb's weasel words, as obviously more than just 'one man' chose to be in Rapture with that philosophy inforce. Of course she is demented enough to think it is possible to remove humanity from humans.... :Rapture was built around a''' principle of minimal government interference, "a city free of law and god." :'the'' should be there because the second section of the sentence details more specificly the particular "principle of minimal government interference" Rapture was built around. (ignoring the ludicrous proposal that a situation of 'no law' can exist in any possible society). : 13:13, March 29, 2015 (UTC) ::I don't think anyone can deny that Lamb is extrapolating Rapture's state to justify her philosophy/ambition, just as any other politician (Ryan too). There were laws in Rapture, with the most elementary ones being no contact with the surface and free market, and of course killers and thieves were treated as such. But why are you bringing this subject to this page? Pauolo (talk) 16:28, March 29, 2015 (UTC) ::Perhaps a quote from Lamb might not be the best thing to mention in defining Rapture as it was (theres no mention of problems with 'security' before the malignancy that Fontaine brought and even THAT was being handled except for the effects of ADAM -- not being the kind of thing the rest of the world had previously experienced (as they exaggerate it for plot purposes). :: 02:33, March 30, 2015 (UTC) :::For Pete's sake! Must you be hypercritical of everything? The way the quote is being used in the paragraph, it's not an indictment against Andrew Ryan, his motives, or his philosophy. It was put there as an engaging and powerful way to begin the tale of Ryan Security's history; it's a basic part of Creative Writing. Yes that line is hyperbolic, but it's also iconic, poetic, and a good way to make a call back to games themselves. :::Think back to Ryan's welcome speech played during the ride down from the Lighthouse. Just as he used broad, overarching statements to decry America, Russia, and the Vatican, so too (and in the same vein) does Lamb. "Free of law and god," is simply another way of saying free from the meddlesome interference of overarching government and the false piety and hypocrisy of an old order. In her own special way, she's commending Ryan's ambition. :::Unownshipper (talk) 06:17, March 30, 2015 (UTC) :::Commending ? Listen to what she says immediately following. :::Ryan Security.... thats what this page is about. The service was to implement whatever laws existed within the Social Contract Rapture had (between its citizens -- the common belief of what was right and proper ... and what was NOT allowed). Its not some gang brutally implementing private interests outside common propriety. Ryan then used it against anarchists/terrorists destroying the city/citizens (and probably it was even expanded to be a citizens militia ... ie- "order to report"). :::Rapture was no unrealistic utopia - it had 'security' for handling the rough edges EVERY society has. Quite different from Lamb who had "Lamb as God and Law, and Lets do Away with Individualism(humanity) in the World to make it Perfect" :::Ryan's broad words talk about freedom, Lambs are about how evil individual freedom is. ::: 11:46, March 30, 2015 (UTC) ::::"''Ryan Security.... thats what this page is about." Then why are you going on another Pro-Ryan/Anti-Lamb harangue? There's nothing wrong with the way that quote is being used in the sentence on the main article. It's not like it says: Rapture was built around a principle of minimal government interference, as Sophia Lamb summarized: "a city free of law and god." That would be a biased connection to her brought out of nowhere. As the sentence is now, it's fine. ::::Unownshipper (talk) 21:28, March 30, 2015 (UTC) ::::Its a bit conflicting/contrary to have that quote almost in the first sentence about "Ryan Security", when it WAS basically the de facto police for Rapture (unless the 'Constables' was a seperate organization). The next comment block below here may explain that part of why 'no law' really makes no sense in describing Rapture. (DIdn't Ryan say "I''' will make no law" not that there is NO law.) SO actually removing that quote or putting it further below would be better. Raptures definition would be More like 'minimized official law enforcement' (fewer laws and ordinances ... and for the 'no god' - not all the morality laws usually found in our societies). And then just like in our well-policed world you could '''buy extra protection if you wanted it (including by some local communities Poppadopolis_Police_Department ). :::: 00:21, March 31, 2015 (UTC) :::::But YOU didn't even realize that was a quote from Lamb when you first read it. It's not conflicting or contrary to establish the background of Rapture and the philosophy upon which the city was established in the opening of the HISTORY section (especially when the words immediately before it unequivocally state "minimal government interference"). It's perfectly proper to explain the sort of environment that allowed for a private industry to become the principle force of law in a community before discussing the actual entity itself. Also, the judiciary system and the executive system are two entirely different things, so I doubt anyone would conflate the two with each other. :::::You are becoming so captious it's becoming difficult to take your objections seriously. "Minimized official law enforcement" is utterly stilted and verbose, and not entirely accurate since even though Ryan Security was contracted by the Council, that still didn't make them "official." We're writing a summary article, not the fine print of a legal contract. :::::Unownshipper (talk) 02:18, March 31, 2015 (UTC) ::::: "While there was no State run army or police force" : The wiki pages mention 'constables' alot and that isnt usually a term for 'security agents' (or guards). That title is usually used with officially (civicly) assigned officers of the law. In Rapture with its mercantile philosophy, most companies wont pay for 'private' security of an entire area that includes public places (it would be the local community that would have to authorize it or any 'enforcement' isnt legally binding ). Security for private property - no problem (within societal limits), but thats only part of the city. Ryan Industries runs Ryan Security as a law system for the entire city (civic entity)? Isnt that really a 'police force'? Which is answerable to the Rapture City Council (and therefore its citizens) ? SO the statement "While there was no State run army or police force" may be wrong for the police part of it. 12:12, March 30, 2015 (UTC) :I've been wondering about that too. Since the Rapture Central Council was representing the people (you could definitely call that a govering body), they could have allowed funds for security and maintenance of the city to whichever company would take on the contracts (Ryan Industries, mainly). There should have been minimum taxes to make this work, a city with no taxes is impossible and would soon fall in ruins, even more in such hostile environment. And so yes, Ryan's security service were a kind of police force, investigating on the smuggling operation and other crimes opposed to Ryan's philosophy of freedom. Pauolo (talk) 15:23, March 30, 2015 (UTC) : :More than just investigating, but even having 'beat' cops walking the streets (constables) as a constant presence to prevent crime. The 'Ducky' splicers attire is that of weather gear for street policemen. Its also the common 'law' that will be enforced continually (and if citywide, universally). :Freedom still has limits (you cant just rob and steal etc...) and Ryans/Rapture's 'freedom philosophy moved a line further back from what was typical in the modern world (including from morality behavior based laws usually based on religion). :Theres also (somewhere) has to be the other component of judges/courts as 'police' (in our society) dont carry out the penalties for the crimes (and a chance for the perps to have legal defense). Its unlikely the minimal Rapture City Council handles something like that. Other legal matters/systems like honoring/enforcing contracts/property rights also have to be there for any commercial operation bigger than a hotdog stand to be run. : 00:33, March 31, 2015 (UTC) ::If you want an answer for why the word "constable" is being used, it's to have a larger variety of words present for a more pleasant sounding article. It's done so that the words "security guard" aren't repeated ad nauseum which would create a droning, unpleasant block of text. ::As for the other issues, I'm afraid you're putting more thought into this than the designers have. The people who made this game are entertainers not urban philosophers or city planners. They were creating a fun and engaging thought experiment, not a literal living/breathing city. And please don't offer the "I just wish more serious thought had gone into the planning" response as clearly their priorities were different than yours and that doesn't mean the game suffers greatly. : ::Unownshipper (talk) 06:26, March 31, 2015 (UTC) ::OK, then since the game is all so devoid of facts and full of vagueries (but fun), then the question is : Is the statement "While there was no State run army or police force, for-profit enterprises which..." actually supported by the game, OR is it just an assumption written here? (which you told me before we aint supposed to have on this here wiki....) Are they merely local Rent-a-Cops (or at best Mall cops) or are they public police hired to maintain a modicum of order and safety (basicly the same as Ryan keeps the heat/air/lights on in the public places)? If neither way, then the text 'there was no ... police force" isnt correct either. :: 13:05, March 31, 2015 (UTC) :::YOU are putting the entirely wrong amount of emphasis on that sentence. "While there was no State run army or police force" indicates that the the police force was not run by the State, not that there were no police forces at all. We very CLEARLY have Rapture Security and the Poppadopolis Police Department. Ryan owns RS, but the State (governing body, whatever you want to call it) doesn't begin and end with Andrew Ryan himself. He's just an individual memeber of the Council. If the whole council owned RS it'd be different. :::Are you THAT literal? Would you prefer it if the words were swapped so it read ""While there was no State run police force or army," because noun and adjective placement seems to be what your whole bone of contention boils down to with this. :::Unownshipper (talk) 21:03, March 31, 2015 (UTC) ::: Can the common understanding of a 'police force' ever be something NOT run by 'the state' ? Strong mans thugs. Gangsteres goons. But not 'police'. :::Actually Im being more general as to the usage of the word 'run'. Ryan Security apparently is a 'company'/'business', but it is (was) answerable to the Rapture City Council - so in that sense THEY run(ran) it.... Ryan's people maintained the (or alot of) infrastructure of Rapture (McDonagh running all over the place patching leaks and such) so who 'runs' the city maintenance Ryan or the Council?? They never quite say. :::They all work for Ryan ?? AT his orders... SO wouldnt that make HIM effectively "The State" ? Its all vague, never really detailed. In BaS they have Booker comment that everyone who came to Rapture signed some kind of contract giving Ryan all the say-so (his opinion?). But I doubt most people of the philosophical bent portrayed would EVER go as far as leave the world to ever come under those conditions. Trade the tyranny of thge Parasites for the tyranny of Ryan..... no. Therefore Rapture would have its minimal government ("The State") and its NOT just Ryan. (again no real detail except what we see after the old system has fallen apart). We get the writers narrow focus displayed from the time during the Civil War, when the Councils Inactivity was costing lives, safety and the economy, and Ryan stepping up to actively do needed things. ::::::::We dont know whats 'official' or not. Neither way. And sorry, society that we saw doesnt run in a state of anarchy with everyone who could just buying their own thugs and everyone else just knuckling under. Official is also what the people of Rapture accepted. Ryan and the Council (the government) arranged to have Ryan Security put in place (assume the citywide?) with the standards of law and order as typical of an American city of that time. We saw Ducky in a police beat cops weather outfit - modeled after a typical NYC functionary in the police force - not really the dress of a duded up Pinkerton Agent. :::So again 'run' by who? Business people who wont spend a dime on public safety outside their property, or some other entity whos interest is the public's stability/safe environment (and community accepted/empowered as would be needed for the city we are shown Rapture was). ::: 08:33, April 1, 2015 (UTC)